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May 10, 2019
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Oldskool
Joined: Feb 1, 2004
Posts: 1182
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I've been around for 20 years, never seen upper class man mess with their younger teammates. And it is the coaches responsibility to monitor that. No problem with 7th & 8th graders wrestling high school.
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May 10, 2019
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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Ive been around for 40 yrs and High School wrestling was for High School students. High School today starts in 9th grade. 50 yrs ago- the HS had grades 10 thru 12th
I think we just see things differently
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May 11, 2019
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132nomore
Joined: Jan 3, 2015
Posts: 61
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I think where some if the disconnect on this topic comes from is while 49 other states do not compete in the weight class
99i has been a staple of NY wrestling forever and most people don’t like change
As I have stated prior I a fan of 99 as it is a weight class that allows smaller kids to compete who would other wise be on the sideline -
What I don’t agree with and Is MS kids being pulled up when not needed in line up and basicly being room wrestlers
Seeing A handful of matches in a season
This is a contributing factor to why most MS teams are lacking
Coaches leave them down where they belong -
No one is ever going to care if you were pulled up in MS
Yes for a select few they most certainly belong but that is a Extremely small minority and saying 99 was a launching pad forvthem while accurate in many cases is not a valid reason to keep a weight class
Many of them would have achieved similar accolades with or with out 99
It is not just about the upper echelon wrestler
It’s about what is best for the sport in a whole
In my humble opinion
Changes that are needed in NYS
1 MS ( modified ) needs a complete overhaul
2 7/8 only eligible if spot is not already occupied by a varsity age student (9-12)
3 Weigh certs - you must cert for scratch weigt
No more backing after the Christmas gift of plus 2
4 JV needs to matter - they need matches
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May 11, 2019
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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....40 yrs ago without weight certifications the 96 lb weight class had juniors and seniors....WHY ?? well, the answer is simple- they did drastic things to reach the weight. 20 lbs of weight loss was common during a week. Most just making weight at weigh ins.
not much different 30 and 20 yrs ago. Today. sensibility has prevailed. WEIGHT CERTs. This change alone- should have woken up the rules administration. You would have to raise the starting weight class for High School age wrestlers and /or allow peewee wrestlers to wrestle varsity matches. They chose the latter.
I am still asking the same question: WTF is a 12 yr old doing on a Varsity wrestling mat ????? PS.. I really do not care how "good" he is !!!!!!
SENSIBILITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!! What's the rush ????????????? Mine would be a simple fix- no younger than 14 - and- no older than 18....starting somewhere around 105 lbs.
......................................................................
for Oldskool and others......How many 12 and 13 yr olds are winning Varsity titles at 120 lbs or better ??????? Give me 1 or 2 in NYS ???
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May 11, 2019
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Marty, I agree with you but both my boys were varsity eligible if they were in another school (both boys were well over 120 in 7th grade and were beating high school kids at that age). I will tell you I agree that they didn't belong there for many other reasons, and I will tell you that there is nothing like the varsity practice even at a weak wrestling school like Ward Melville, so I understand how it feels to have your kid atrophy in a middle school program for 7th grade (James) and/or sit out as did Christian while our school formulated what it should do for 7th graders (he wasted a year). It is a crappy place to be as a parent when you know your kid can compete and he isn't allowed. I also agree that there needs to be a valid middle school program and since there isn't the patchwork of allowing middle school kids on varsity will continue. In hindsight the way my school now does it seems fair 7th grade absolutely no way and 8th graders if they are eligible (1 year early isn't killing anyone).
Rob Araneo
P.S.
I do think I could name a few more but I hate bringing high school kids name into a forum if they or their parents aren't interested in making their stories public.
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May 11, 2019
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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There was a day when parents were'nt involved in High School sports...IMO it was a better time. It was nice to see parents sitting in the stands as viewers - not standing near the coach or the side of the mat. It has gotten ridiculous. High School sports- is not upper level peewee sports- where we need the dad's input. Whoever allowed/started this trend ....well, maybe the HS Coach should stand by you at your job everyday...shhheeeeshhh!!!!
It isnt about WINs- when you are 12-13 yr olds. It is about learning- getting to understand all facets of wrestling. neutral, set-ups, takedowns, mat wrestling , counters, tilts, pins, and getting as many matches as you can ...so, by the time you are a junior in HS...You should be near your best- schooled. MANY kid stars who win early -fail to raise their game as they get older. They refuse to listen and learn. The select few - can yet, they would have anyway -as they got older.
HIGH SCHOOL SPORTs are for HS student /athletes.
.........................
bigkid,
the ONLY reason a 12, 13 yr old could/would ever beat a junior or senior today- is because of a depleted talent pool.. There werent too many 14 yr old freshmen 40 yrs ago that could even carry a HS soph/junior/ senior 's ballbag.
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May 18, 2019
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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Parents not involved, LOL!!! Parents were always involved! If they aren't, the sport dies, so dont kid yourself. This is a sport that involves more parental commitment than any other, so stop blaming them for becoming emotionally attached. If you just left it up to coaches, the matches would be wrestled in front of empty bleachers at 3pm!!! They dont care.
And as far as 99 goes, glad its staying!! Fix the middle school farce first. Get rid of 195 instead if you want to cut something. Oh boo-boo, the 99 pounders aren't in HS! So what!! At least they demonstrate some technical understanding. I'd rather watch that than a couple of football players pushing each other around the mat!!
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May 19, 2019
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WannaB
Joined: Feb 1, 2019
Posts: 13
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As someone who has been involved in the sport for over 40 years, what Marty describes is accurate. There was a time when parents left the coaching to the coaches, supported their sons AS WELL AS their teammates, and let their sons participate without the (sad) need to be such a visible part of the competitive experience. Ask Armand Cacciatore, Walt Thurnau, Mike Foster, et al how much they needed parents in other than support roles while building their programs! I know from personal experience that a parent who helps a wrestler by getting them to clinics/tournaments/camps, as mine did for me, is a great thing and can help when the school wrestling room is not real strong. After that, my parents watched and supported the TEAM w/out questioning or denigrating the coaches role and contribution to my OVERALL development (sadly not a focus for many of the "Modern wrestling parent"). This was the norm. We are all familiar with the misbehavior of parents/wrestlers in the wrestling environment today snd it is ultimately reflected in low retention rates from the beginner to high school level.While there are great clubs and coaches out there who definitely help development, this trend has also contributed to the mistaken belief expressed by the "modern" wrestling parent (above) that has hurt the sport more than it's helped it in many cases. Denigrating the role of the school coach because the club coach "knows more" s counterproductive. As the great Joe Patrovich told me several years ago in response to my question re his non-involvement in club wrestling on LI, "i quit sending kids to clubs when I realized I taught most of those guys most of what they knew". In other words.......parents need to pack their kids lunch, sit in the bleachers, help with transportation, pat the kid on the back win or lose, etc. Maybe contribute by helping expose their son's teammates to clinicians....rather than being ego driven tools who try to make up for the athletic experience that most of them didn't have.
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May 19, 2019
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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I wasn't talking about parents stepping into the room, or telling coach's how to coach. That's not going on. I was referring to the offseason role parents play. When a kid steps into a room in November 100 times more polished than he was the previous season, why do you think that is? So parents spend all this money and invest all this time, only to watch coach's vote away a weight class that has accelerated the progress of their kids year after year sans a strong middle school system, and they're just supposed to sit on the sideline and keep their mouths shut about it? Get real.
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May 19, 2019
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Well said falcon, parental involvement is critical to the success of many sports not just wrestling, teachers school administrators or others involved in sports think they are the sole reasons for success and rarely thank the community which support them.
Most high school coaches I have met are awesome, but like anything in life there are many ways to success. What I see so often is a a clash of styles. I have seen many coaches I admire be the wrong coach for that child and when you are involved with school sports you don’t get to get the right mix like you would with a club coach. High school coaches are too sensitive to the club coaches and what should be (and in many cases is) a perfect symbiosis becomes a pissing contest between two people who should have similar goals. High school coaches do not get paid enough for their time, club coaches need to make themselves be the “answer” and often over state their influence. For every parent who thinks their kids are the second coming of Christ, there is one or two coaches who think they have the only answer to whatever the problem is so the most effective coaches are the ones who are able to get the most out of this dynamic situation without letting their egos get in the way.
99 is getting a bum rap, I also agree upper weights should go first but we should spread out lower weights by 3-5 pounds more then they are now, just my opinion.
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May 19, 2019
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WannaB
Joined: Feb 1, 2019
Posts: 13
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You both make some good points about the evolving role of coaches, club coaches, and parents in the development of wrestlers. I'm old school enough to remember when high school coaches ran "open mats" and all were welcome....no money/pissing contests/ego trips involved...just kids who wanted to get better getting together to get after it. The current culture/system has obviously led to many highly skilled great wrestlers but...and I think it's an important point and needs to be made....it has also created a dearth of the "average" wrestlers that we need to keep the sport healthy in many programs.
As far as "getting real" re: the 99 pound weight class...the fact is that we are the only state in the country that has it. While there is a lot of room for improvement in the modified system, you can't tell me that many (if any) of those kids competing at the varsity level are passing the Tanner test. So it's great when two 8th graders are wrestling each other, maybe not so great when there's a physical mismatch and a kids getting pounded by a more physically mature wrestler. That's why coaches, administrators, et al, who have backgrounds/educations in human development, etc. and are invested in the health and safety of all student athletes (not just your club studs) do get to make those decisions. NYS will have 99 again next year.....the national federation is examining the issue of reducing from 14 weights and I expect NYS to follow their lead in the future. And yes, as hard as it might be for you to accept, parents do not have a role in that decision making process......no matter how much $ you've spent! Tell me the lack of a 99 pound class has hurt wrestling in PA/NJ or any of the states that do not have it.
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May 19, 2019
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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WannaB, the point is jersey and other states have a middle school program that is actually worth its salt NY doesn’t. This matter in no way ever effected me my kids were over 99 in third grade, and all of them wrestle upper weights but I see the problem with removing it
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May 19, 2019
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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Yes, you must have missed where I inferred that if NY had a stellar middle school program, then the loss of 99 pounds would be all part of the process, and their development wouldnt be impeded.
In fact, that's the ENTIRE reason it must stay for now!!
And please....
No more mention of NJ and PA! If they had our middle school structure, they be clinging to 99 too!
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May 19, 2019
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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......and okay, let's say today we adopted all Jersey rules of Varsity wrestling. And let's say your kid is entering the 8th grade, and hes an absolute stud in the 99-106 pound range. The varsity team in your district is okay, and this kid would walk into that room and start at either weight.
What's he supposed to do next season to be challanged?
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May 20, 2019
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WannaB
Joined: Feb 1, 2019
Posts: 13
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Falcs,
When you make a statement that "coaches don't care", I'll admit that gets under my skin. As the big kids dad says,most coaches care..a lot; they do often face challenges w admin who don't understand what wrestling does for all who commit to it.
Facts for you to consider:
There are more forfeits in wrestling than ever before.....stats show most at 99...and yes, at those upper weights also, hence the national federation examining that issue.
The sectional brackets reflect the same trends....
99 is mostly 7th and 8th graders....
Selective classification exists for the exceptional athlete with safeguards built into the process to ensure the athlete is ready to compete at the high school level from a physical and emotional standpoint.....
my brother ( NYS placer and ESG champ) was selectively classified to compete as an 8th grader in 1979 (weight was 105?) at a school w no modified program...so i'm familiar w that process which will continue to exist even if 99 doesn't; In 7th grade he would have been big enough for 91 lbs/lowest class at the time but wouldn't have passed the tanner, so my dad got him to tournaments while he got on the mat everywhere he could (usually on our home mat taking beatings from older guys/future teammates).
NYSPHSAA is not going to change their mod philosophy which is intended to recruit and retain athletes to our great sport because it doesn't fit your idea of what it should be; I would say if kids have to be a little bigger (how many can't meet min weight?0 to compete at hs level as 7th/8th graders it may be time for them to compete at the modified level while continuing to train/compete at the club level until they are big/old enough for high school. Have an 8th grade nephew doing that in a mid atlantic state w no junior high wrestling program;from what i see, it's not hurting his development AT ALL. The current system is not good for the overall health of the sport despite your emotional attachment to it (something about middle age men "clinging" to a weight class strikes me as ego driven by dads)...might be time for a paradigm shift buddy.
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